Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ncar!tank!gargoyle!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: What does "free" mean, eh? (Re: Scareware) Summary: Talk about being unreasonable! Message-ID: <1990Mar11.192604.7216@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 11 Mar 90 19:26:04 GMT References: <14010@s.ms.uky.edu> <125816@midas.UUCP> <635@magnus.Hotline.Com> <34812@watmath.waterloo.edu> <10612@hoptoad.uucp> <796.25f66867@ccvax.ucd.ie> <1142@mtxinu.UUCP> Reply-To: karl@mcs.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. - Mundelein, IL Lines: 82 In article <1142@mtxinu.UUCP> frk@mtxinu.UUCP (Frank Korzeniewski) writes: >In article peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: ># >#Claiming rights to your code because you use a GNU library routine is just >#a bit beyond the pale for me. You may disagree, but surely you can see the >#point. > >I am afraid that I do not see the point. Especially since you trumpet >this line of reasoning (if you can call it that) in several news groups. >It just looks like the general impression of you on the net as just a >petty little ankle biter is so very true. For you to ask for toleration >of your opinion is the height of arrogance, given the complete lack of >toleration you display towards others. > >Your statement is equivalent to the following: "What, you want money for >this software you wrote (or product you created)? How dare you?" > >Frank Korzeniewski (frk@mtxinu.com) Not at all Frank. And I, for one, find it amusing that you attempted to redirect discussion of this point out of comp.sources.d. I think that Peter has a valid point. You can disagree with it if you like, but it's his point of view and is just as valid as anyone else's. Ad-hominen attacks don't help your case. Let's stick to the issues -- the Gnu license in this case. I have heard several reasoned voices saying that it is in many ways a "virus", in that it tends to infest code that comes in contact with it. Look at the bison parser skeleton. If you create something using it, and make a binary out of it, you have just Copylefted your code -- whether you want to or not. That would be analogous to AT&T saying that you can't sell binaries of programs for their line of computers (3b2 now) without paying them a royalty, since you linked their libraries in with your original code to create the package. Obviously AT&T and other systems vendors don't do this. They would be destroying their market if they did -- no software for sale means no hardware sold, at least in a commercial environment. Now that Richard Stallman and GNU have a philosophy is OK. That they want to (and do) put out reasonable software to use is also OK. But one should be very careful not to confuse GNU with "Free" software. GNU is not free of encumberances, as is public domain code. The encumberances that come with GNU code are very subtle and insidious at times, and subject to much misunderstanding. I don't object to the requirements in the GPL that say you must let people know that the original source is available freely, and even that you must tell people where they can find it. I do object to >your< code coming under it's grasp when you run it through Bison, or when you link it with their libraries (if and when they ever become stable and available). My response is not to improve GNU packages. Those we find useful, we compile up and use. Support and enhance them? No bloody way, since we then HAVE TO GIVE AWAY OUR ENHANCEMENTS TO ANYONE WHO ASKS. Support is also in this picture, since support often entails bug fixes, modifications for specific user needs, and enhancements -- all of which GNU expects us to give away. The only exceptions are those few packages which we make trivial changes to, and don't mind giving away the enhancements. Once we put more than an hour or so into the changes, we stop. Simple enough. Tell me -- let's say you could get GNU C freely, OR you could buy a GNU C-based compiler for $500 from some company, but the enhanced version could not be distributed. Why object to that? If you don't like the fee, get the free version! Of course, the free version doesn't include the efforts of the people who enhanced it later on. Such is the price of the enhancements; you're not being forced to buy them! That, I think, is the point of Peter's and others objections. (Donning asbestos flame-proof suit!) -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, !ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"