Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!decwrl!amdcad!pepsi!phil From: phil@pepsi.amd.com (Phil Ngai) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Subject: Re: Brain-dead 286 - summary Message-ID: <29405@amdcad.AMD.COM> Date: 7 Mar 90 20:39:49 GMT References: <8681@rosevax.Rosemount.COM> Sender: news@amdcad.AMD.COM Reply-To: phil@pepsi.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) Distribution: usa Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. Sunnyvale CA Lines: 124 In article <8681@rosevax.Rosemount.COM> marknew@rosevax.UUCP (Mark Newman) writes: |From Raymond Chen (raymond@math.berkeley.edu): | There is no way to switch from protceted mode to real mode on a 286. Of course not. What good is a protected mode if a random program can violate it? |From Dean William Wallwey (wallwey@snoopy.colorado.edu): | The 386 and 386SX both have very powerful memory mapping powers which | are used by the new operating systems. What new operating systems are you thinking of? Unix, perhaps? | calls Virtual 86 mode so you can multitask DOS programs using Windows | or DesqView for the 386. The small amount of money you save by buying I still don't believe the DV386 uses virtual 86 mode. Does anyone have any definitive data? Maybe I'll ask QD. | The new software that is coming around the bend really | needs large flat memory spaces (EVEN the NEW 386 version of OS/2 | later this year will take advantage of the 386's powers and really | shine!) It doesn't seem to me that there is very much software for OS/2. I know of Excel and Pagemaker. That's about it. Windows, on the other hand, has a lot of software. And when 3.0 comes out, it will run in protected mode, allowing 16 megabytes of memory, ON A 286. | The 386,386SX and 486 will | run OS/2, mulitasking DOS, and UNIX, MUCH MUCH better than the 286 | ever will. Even the new Windowing word processors from MicroSoft Unix does run better on 386 and 486. I don't know what you mean by multi-tasking DOS. | (WORD for WINDOWS already out) and the future WordPerfect for OS/2 | will run so much better on a 386/386SX than the 286. This is untrue. Word for Windows does not take advantage of the 386. Windows 3.0 will take advantage of the 286. | Even if you don't think that you'll need the power of the 386 group, | you will soon see even the simple "home" programs like word pro- | cessing and spreadsheets longing for the 386/386SX. (I guess they | already do with WORD for WINDOWS, and Lotus 1-2-3 ver 3.0 even though | they will "run" on a 286). I don't think you know what you are talking about. |From Michael D. Kersenbrock (michaelk@copper.WR.TEK.COM): | The 286 is brain dead primarily because Intel made two major errors | in it's design: | 1.) In protected mode (where it can access more than 1 Megabyte), | the chip's MMU-ish architecture is "different" to the point | that DOS can't handle it. DOS MUST run in "real" mode (1Meg This seems like a problem with DOS, since the architecture of the 8086 is inherently limited to 1 megabyte, any improvements would have to be different, and it's up to DOS to take advantage of it. In addition, MS has said there will be a DOS 5 and DOS 6 (in InforWorld). Perhaps by then they will get around to using the power of the 286. | So, it's not brain dead in the sense of being useless, but brain dead | in the sense that it isn't what it could/should have been had things | been done just a little bit different. Nonsense. Tell me specifically what you would have done differently from Intel? I bet you can't come up with anything. |From Marc Louis Levinson (gt0159a@prism.gatech.edu): | The 286 is not really brain dead. The problem is that nobody has | ever properly taken advantage of its capabilities. The chip has | available what is called protected mode, which allows advanced | memory handling and multitasking. Chances are slim that you can ever | find a useful DOS application to use this mode. At last, someone who knows what he's talking about. | If you are not planning to use hi power applications, like LOTUS 3, | Windows [loaded to the max], Autocad and others to maximum perform- | ance abilities, then a 286 is ok. Realize that much of the software | now being developed will not run on a 286 but will run on an sx. Con- | sider the lifetime of your computer before you buy one. With Windows 3.0, which does run in protected mode on a 286, due to come out early this summer, you should consider exactly what the extra cost of a 386 will buy you. Also realize that 10 or 20 million 286 machines constitutes a powerful reason for software companies to support the 286. |From John Limpert (johnl@n3dmc.UU.NET): | Many programs | were designed for 32 bit machine like the 80386 and if they will run Name some, besides CAD packages. I think most people want things like spreadsheets, word processors, and games. These will run just fine on a 286. | In the future | there will be a lot of software that will only be available for 80386 | class machines. Again, there is a very large market for 286 applications and they simply will not be left unsupported. | I am writing this on the 80286 UNIX system I bought several years | ago. I wouldn't throw it out but I wouldn't buy another one today. Certainly Unix is one program that benefits from a 386. But users don't buy PCs to run Unix, they buy PCs to run applications, and Unix is one of the worst systems to try to buy applications for. What kind of spreadsheets can you get? Anything that comes even close to Excel? I hear you can finally get MS Word 5.0 on Unix. A character based application, when DOS has Word for Windows. If you've got the Unix religion, I guess you'll get a 386. But if you want to get work done, you'll stay away from Unix. -- Phil Ngai, phil@amd.com {uunet,decwrl,ucbvax}!amdcad!phil A PC without DESQview is like Unix without ^Z.