Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!tank!gargoyle!ddsw1!ddsw1!karl
From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc
Subject: Re: Why do magazine's review mail-order PC brands
Message-ID: <25f95a6d-2559.5comp.ibmpc-1@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 10 Mar 90 20:00:10 GMT
References: <1990Mar6.024915.1295@cs.dal.ca> <1640076@hpspcoi.HP.COM>
Lines: 181

Time to shoot down some more misconceptions...

>-----
>Response 4 of 4 (9561) by dlow at hpspcoi.HP.COM on Sat 10 Mar 90 03:43
>[Danny Low]
>(40 lines)
>
>>In most cases the only difference is the name on the front of the
>>case.
>>And they also think that company X's box is somehow different and
>>better/worse than comany Z's box.
>>This is how it works:
>
>This is your basic incomplete and dangerous information. The description
>of how it works is a generality that has many many exceptions. The larger
>clone makers are certainly exceptions to this rule.
>
>They have qualification programs. This means the clone maker only
>buy from suppliers who can meet certain standards of quality. This means
>testing components to insure that the standards are actually being
>made. The result is you are less likely to get a clone that is DOA.
>Returning a mail order clone that is DOA is annoying and time consuming.
>From the MANY conflicting "I have no problems with my X clone" and "I
>will never buy an X clone again" postings on the net, there are some
>clone makers who clearly have quality control problems. 

Yep, including some of those who do their testing.

Then there are those with an excellent service record.  Those with 
extraordinally low failure rates other than mechanical components (like 
disk drives).

MOST of the problems with clones that have been shipped are caused by
shipper abuse.  We see it all the time - UPS is hell on computer systems,
even when they are correctly packed.  And it's mechanical motion parts, like
disk drives, that take the brunt of it.  You simply cannot blame that on the
clone maker -- it is beyond his control (except after the fact, and you
have a right to expect prompt attention to these problems!)  Hell, Fed-Ex
has trashed a machine or two on us before!

MOST reasonable clone shops test their systems before shipment.  Good places
do at least a 72 hour burn-in, with some kind of automated software and/or
hardware to ensure that everything is working right BEFORE it leaves.  That
is one of the reasons you will >never< get a system from our company that
has "original" wrapping on the component parts (or get parts in a box).  We
check >every< piece, and to do that they all have to be installed and
exercised -- as a unit.

I'm not going to claim that all clone shops are this good.  I know some
aren't -- some are literally shlock operations, and some of the big guys
don't give a tinker's damn about quality control either!  In general the
magazine "cheapie" places can't afford that kind of quality control, so they
don't do it.  Simple enough.  You, the buyer, do it for them.  Quality techs
aren't cheap to employ!

>The larger clone makers have their own IC design teams to design customer
>circuits for their clones. The resulting clone may be faster, cheaper or more 
>reliable than a clone made entirely of off-the-shelf components. 
>Check the motherboards on the clone. The small clone makers buy their
>motherboards off the shelf from an oem supplier. The large
>clone makers make their own motherboards. A custom motherboard
>is a good sign that this is not just another clone.

A custom motherboard, power supply, or other components (such as HP's
integrated "everything buy the kitchen sink boards" that control disk I/O,
serial and parallel ports) also raise the cost of repair by an exhorbitant
amount.  

What does a replacement motherboard cost for one of those ES12s?  Or a QS16?
Or, God Forbid, the plug-in module for the RS series systems?

Now what does a "clone" motherboard cost?

What do you pay to replace that blown serial port?  $60 for a clone board?
Or $300 for the "integrated schmaltz controller with everything" card?

Once you're out of warranty these things become rather, uh, important.

Cost of ownership includes much more than the original selling price.

>I work for a clone maker testing new clones. Most of
>what goes in our Vectras are custom designed by us. The stuff
>we oem off the shelf has to meet our internal Strife standards.
>InfoWorld wrote an article recently on the tests an oem component
>has to pass to qualify before we will use it. You can bet a clone
>maker operating out of a garage does not do this sort of testing.
>You may be getting an equally good product (after all that is 
>how Hewlett-Packard got started) but that is unlikely.

Is it unlikely?  I'd be happy to dispute that.   

We service nearly every brand of PC in existance today.  One of our
customers has a lot of HP equipment due to political reasons (by their own
admission).  We love this -- their repair business is darn good to us, in 
no small part due to the number of Vectras on their site.

You use Seagate Drives in the Vectras (ES12/QS16 models).  I have replaced 
over 10 of them in the last year with "stiction" problems.  Looks like HP 
quality control didn't catch it any better than anyone else's quality control!
What did "Strife" do for you there?  All of them have your own HP control 
sticker on them, and every one of them is junk.  Just like a lot of other
Seagates.

Thanks to the warranty on some of those units (90 days!) the drives were out
of warranty, and the customer got to eat the cost of the new disk drive.
Most clone shops?  One year warranty, parts and labor.  

Most notably, none of the replacements we have installed have failed.

I've also replaced three of your "super-duper controller-I/O boards" in
Vectra PC's.  All out of warranty by a couple of months.  All replaced with
standard controllers and I/O cards, since that was a >lot< cheaper than
replacing with "original" HP parts.... and again, all of those replacements
are still working.

Look at the parts in a Vectra.  Paradise video card, for all intents and
purposes (or at least Paradise video controller chips).  Custom IC's?
Where?  On the motherboard, maybe.  On the peripheral boards?  Where?

Custom >boards<?  Yes.  All over.  Nice and expensive to replace, 
proprietary that they are.  A good way to ensure (or try to) that you get
the service business on the PCs, and get to charge whatever you want on the
repair parts.

At least HP doesn't etch the manufacturer's markings off the chips, like
some other companies.  This contributes to my being able to identify the
disk controller as WD-based with some extra pieces tacked on for serial and
parallel ports, the VGA video as a Paradise chipset, etc.

Shall we talk about power supplies?  ~105 Watts in the QS16's available to
the user, while all the clone systems have 150 or 200 watt power supplies in
that class?  And before anyone says it's enough, it isn't -- we had power
problems with a QS16.  Don't put a full-height hard disk in a QS16 if you 
have additional memory and some cards in the system; there isn't enough juice 
there.  105 Watts is marginal for an XT, say much less any 80386 system! 
(Don't believe me?  Go add up the nameplate ratings sometime and you'll see 
for yourself).  Now, how much is a replacement power supply for a Vectra?  

You should have seen the red-faced person at Spring Comdex last year when 
I asked about the power supply rating in a QS16, he said "it's 150 watts", 
and I got him to take off the cover.  It's not hard to multiply volts X 
amps and add the results.......  150 Watts drawn from the wall, perhaps.
Delivered to the innards of the machine?  No way!

For all this "quality control" and "superior engineering" HP charges a 
premium price.  They are not alone; Tandy and others do the same thing.  
They have a name, true.  Does it ensure quality?  Does the "quality control"
do it either?  You be the judge.

Some firms test completed systems.  I know we do, and I know factually that 
a few other firms do.  I also know that lots of companies DO NOT; they ship 
machines in parts for "final assembly" by the user.  How do they know whether 
or not the parts all work together, this particular set?  The answer, of 
course, is that they don't.

Clones are a good buy, as long as you get a system from a reliable
source.  Just remember, you cannot measure the cost of ownership (which is
what really matters!) by either the name on the front or the price paid 
alone.  You must look much deeper than that.  The analysis is not easy,
but if you care about the quality of what you purchase it must be done.

Those who buy only on the basis of price are never going to get that kind 
of care in assembly and component choice.

If you are willing to spend more, you can either spend a little more and
find a clone shop that cares about these items, yet doesn't sacrifice the
standard-component interchangability, or go with something like the Vectra
(or Tandy) lines and spend lots of cash.  The choice, as always, lies with
the consumer.  And the "top-of-the-line" name brands aren't always better, 
or even as good as the no-name clones.  In many cases they are just
different -- different enough to cost you should repairs be needed later on.

An informed consumer is our best customer.

Disclaimer:  We service and sell PC Clones.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910]
Macro Computer Solutions, Inc.   "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"