Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!ncar!tank!gargoyle!ddsw1!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Subject: Re: Why do magazine's review mail-order PC brands Message-ID: <25fe6d7c-2559.12comp.ibmpc-1@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 14 Mar 90 17:00:10 GMT References: <1990Mar6.024915.1295@cs.dal.ca> <1640078@hpspcoi.HP.COM> Lines: 121 >>I wrote.... >Response 10 of 11 (9561) by dlow at hpspcoi.HP.COM on Wed 14 Mar 90 03:32 >[Danny Low] >(22 lines) > >>MOST of the problems with clones that have been shipped are caused by >>shipper abuse. ... You simply cannot blame that on the >>clone maker -- it is beyond his control > >This is NOT beyond the control of the clone maker. Proper packing >can reduce this problem. Strife testing includes shaking and drop of the >Vectra PC in shipping containers to find any problems in this area. I don't think you have understood my point -- or perhaps you don't do incoming inspection of cartons or have to deal with it when the Gorillas get ahold of your product. I'd like to see your Vectra, or ANYONES equipment survive some of what I've seen UPS do. When the system is reduced to 1/2 it's initial height, or someone forks the side of the box (with a forklift!), or the carton is crushed due to a 5+ foot fall onto hard concrete, then you are screwed, pure and simple. Shock limits for fixed disks are typically 25-40Gs instantaneous. Proper packing helps, but it will not solve the problem when the shipper drops the system from a height of 5+ feet, crushes it beyond recognition, or impales it with a forklift or other "interesting" objects! I have noted that you aren't one of the few makers who spend the extra money to put "shockwatch" devices on your PCs or shipping cartons....those positively identify devices which have been subjected to unreasonable shock loads. (In all fairness, I've never seen a clone makers do this -- but DEC does on many of their drive devices, including the old "RL" removable disk packs!) >>You use Seagate Drives in the Vectras (ES12/QS16 models). I have replaced >>over 10 of them in the last year with "stiction" problems. Looks like HP >>quality control didn't catch it any better than anyone else's quality >>control! > >We are not too happy about this problem either. If you are replacing >stiction problem drives you are doing your customers a disservice. How? The system was down, and now it's working. And it has stayed working. >The problem can be solved by taking the drive out and giving it a >quick twist counterclockwise to spin the disk free. This problem >is inherent in the design of the drive according to a Seagate engineer >I talked to. Replacing the drive is only a solution if you replace it >with a non-Seagate drive. I hate to say it, but you don't know what you are talking about. We've talked to companies without a vested interest -- several repair firms that fix these things -- and we have done our own inspection of failed/dead drives. You >can< free up the drive by doing the "twisties", or by moving the stepper motor shaft. But that doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it work this time. A week, or a day, or an hour later, when the system is again powered down and left to cool, it may stick again. Given enough time, it WILL stick again. Once these drives show this symptom, the only permanent fix is replacement. The problem is not inherent to the design of the drive, it is (as has been discussed here before) a problem with the lubricant on the platters. Specifically, some drives had too much lubricant applied in the manufacturing process, which in operation ends up in the "park" area. This stuff is viscous enough that coupled with the head design, and a sufficient quantity of it in one place, the heads are prevented from moving away from "park" when power is applied. This results in a "drive unsafe" status and the spindle refuses to start rotating. The only true fix is replacement of the drive or a rebuild -- and a rebuilt drive doesn't have a new warranty. We give the customers the choice, and so far all of them have opted for replacement. Note that it has nothing to do with the spindle motor itself. If it did, then rotating the stepper shaft would not "unstick" the drives - but it does. We have also seen spindle motors that have a "blown" winding -- these exhibit many of the same symptoms. Again, the only "fix" is replacement. If it was inherent in the design we'd still be getting stiction problems, and we're not. I haven't had a "stuck" drive now for over six months in systems that we have shipped. Seagate seems to have solved the manufacturing QC problem......perhaps they changed the lubricant formulation, or did something else. Who knows. All we do know is that the problem seems to be gone. My point was simply that your firm's quality assurance/quality control programs didn't do any better than anyone else in this specific case. Is that an indictment of HP? Nope. It does, however, say that your "Strife" program failed to catch a major QC problem with a vendor. Everyone else got nailed too, we replaced a half-dozen of these drives under warranty (thank the Gods that all the trouble showed up before the 1 year warranty expired on our machines!) >>Look at the parts in a Vectra. Paradise video card, for all intents and >>purposes (or at least Paradise video controller chips). Custom IC's? >>Where? On the motherboard, maybe. On the peripheral boards? Where? > >Yes we use the Paradise VGA chip set. So do many other VGA board >makers. However our VGA board is our own design and made in our >own surface mount facility. If you read the various VGA comparison reports, >the HP VGA cards passes/fails the compatibility tests differently >than the VGA cards from Paradise. In that respect we are no >different the other VGA makers who also use the Paradise chip set >but design and build their own VGA cards. >They also pass/fail the tests differently. Correct. The point is that it is awfully presumptious to say "We're better" when you use the same parts as everyone else! You may make the board yourself, but let me ask you -- when was the last time you had a >board< fail? The board itself, not the components.... And what about the cost of repair to the customer? I noticed that wasn't addressed. For most customers it is very important, especially once the warranty expires. This is the place where most of the "name brands" fall down; the proprietary components are a real burden once you are out of the factory-warranty protection. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, !ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"